S3 EP54 Stop Overpaying for Google Leads: Become “Five-Mile Famous” | Dan Antonelli

SPEAKER_01 0:00

When you think about branding and you have a brand that feels very similar, common, forgettable, I'm not able to rent space in that consumer's mind, or the only way I can rent space is if I keep hammering them with tons of advertising, which just means you're spending more money. What if I could make it so three impressions or four impressions left an impression in their mind versus 20? How much less would you need to spend on marketing if you had a more remarkable brand?

SPEAKER_03 0:28

Hello, hello, hello, and welcome to the Million Dollar Electrician Podcast, where we help home service pros like you supercharge your business and spark up those sales.

SPEAKER_00 0:40

I'm Joseph Lucani, and together with my co-host Clay New Meyer, we're here to share the secrets that have helped electricians sell over a million dollars in a single service band.

SPEAKER_02 0:49

Now it's time for sales. It's time for scale. It's time to become a million-dollar electrician.

SPEAKER_03 1:01

It's a really cool time uh because we've had a number of people uh branded by you guys around that time. I think that podcast only helped it, got more guys going. Uh, but recently we had Kevin Lockleer on our podcast too, who's a client of ours who just went through the full package with the Kick Charge team as well, and just had nothing but great things to say about you. Uh, that's typically what we hear. So so yeah, uh kudos to you and your guys' efforts. And sounds like the kick charge team has been growing and doing great things still.

SPEAKER_01 1:32

Yeah, yeah, we're up to I think we might be at at 60 employees right now.

SPEAKER_03 1:39

60. Big six zero. Six zero, yeah. Which is you're across multiple shops too, or are they all in-house there then?

SPEAKER_01 1:45

Um we have about 35 here, and then the rest are remote. Wow. We all have a little bit of that imposter syndrome thing, but I I just sometimes think like this is all from some schmuck in his basement that used to just like lettering things. Like it's weird, you know.

SPEAKER_00 2:05

My god, can I relate with that? You know, it's crazy what imposter syndrome does to us because literally we'll go through and accomplish amazing things in our careers and then look back and be like, wait a second, what I'm a piece of shit. How did I accomplish this? That doesn't make any sense.

SPEAKER_03 2:19

I actually um uh I did a little bit of homework just to make sure I could be prepared for this. So since you brought that up already, um, and we just hit record, we just have a good conversation these days. So uh let's see if I can pull this up. I think I have an image from way back here. Share a screen right there. What does this image mean to you, Dan? Oh fire be firebird sweep ink. What was this?

SPEAKER_01 2:46

This is a chimney repair company in Staten Island, and it literally was the first ever van that I hand lettered in my parents' backyard when I was 15 or 16 years old, I think. So when I think about that, I mean that's 40 years ago. So I've been doing this for a pretty freaking long time.

SPEAKER_03 3:11

So this is before you had 60 staff.

SPEAKER_01 3:14

So we had a good day before. Yeah, it's it's remarkable to see. I'll tell you what, like when I when I see it, I still have the emotions that I still have today when seeing my work out in the wild and and being able to experience it. My my daughter just got married down in Gatlinburg and and I was down there and I saw three or four of my brands that we've created out there in the wild while we were driving down there. And I just thought, how, you know, you still get that that emotion when you see it and you're like, hey, that's that's something that I can't say that I did anymore, but that we did, but I'm still really proud to see that work out there in the wild. And uh, you know, I I think I was very blessed to be able to know what I was passionate about very, very early on in my career. So I think it's still wild that, you know, 40 years later I'm still passionate about what we do here and just blessed to be surrounded by so many talented people that just flesh out that that crazy idea I had when I was so young about doing a business about you know, based on brands and trucks and digital marketing, all this stuff. And it's just it's it's pretty cool.

SPEAKER_00 4:30

You know, the cool thing that you're saying is almost it reminds me of an electrician driving around 40 years later saying, I did that house. See that service? That was me. That masked perfect vent that house, terrible. But like it's amazing being able to go through. It sounds like you have a living almost a parallel life to everyone that you're actually working for in their vans.

SPEAKER_01 4:49

Yeah, yeah. And I and I think the the other part that's cool about what we do, and I did sort of get a taste of this even when I was very early on working in sign shops in Staten Island when I when where I lived, was you you got to see the impact that the work would have on people's lives. And so in as much as it's cool to see the brands in action, and it's cool to see when a truck drives by that you you did, but then you become close with the owners and and their team, and and you get to see the impact that our work has had on their lives and their families and and all that other stuff that comes along with it. And that to me is just you know, when you think about measuring success and the benchmarks that you choose to measure success, like I really, really subscribe to the idea of measuring success by the quantity of impact we can provide to people. So people get tied up in revenue and profits and everything like that. And obviously, you need to be profitable in order to run a business and and have all the things that you'd like to provide for your team. But to me, so much of my success is just wrapped around that notion of how much impact can we make in a contractor's life and how can we change their trajectory. And and it's you know, it's just really cool as you step back and you look at the amount of companies that that we've been able to have. At this point, it's over 3,000 home service brands that we've been a part of over the last 31 years, and that's a lot of impact. You know, that's that's a lot of people that have um been affected by uh and impacted by by our work. And it's I love going to trade shows because often you don't see clients in person, um, but you get to see them at some of these events and you hear their stories and and you listen to them talk about how grateful they are. And and I'm just as grateful as well because they helped me live out our why. And um it's just you know, it's a pretty cool thing. Like I still think sometimes it's remarkable that this kid that was just obsessed with lettering, you know, helped create this business with an amazing group of teammates that are still just so passionate about the work that we do on a on a daily basis. And and I think also like one thing that's interesting that I've noticed over the last several years, too, especially as it relates to people that are in the creative services field or that are in the sign field, is many of them share this notion of work being good enough. And I think when you look at the companies that have distinguished themselves with being good or being great, that notion of putting out work that is the benchmark is that it's good enough is something that we have never believed in and never subscribed to. And I hear it talked about so frequently sometimes that it just makes me sad on some level because I'm like, is that the benchmark now that we subscribe to? That it just should be good enough to go out there? Because that's never but been what we've been about. It's always been more the mindset of whatever we do today should never be considered to be good enough for tomorrow. And so we're always trying to elevate. I think it's sad because I think that that is what separates, even when you look at the service industry as far as the work and the quality. And I'm sure there's shortcuts that contractors could take, but is it the right way to do things? Would the homeowner ever know? Well, maybe not, but there's a right way to do it, and there's a way that you can look at it and be proud and know that you put out the best possible product. And to me, I think that those are the little differences that separate good from great, you know. So living in the gaps, yeah, there's value in the gaps.

SPEAKER_03 8:50

I think I I imagined this interview today, and I thought the gaps would come up naturally as we were gonna explore AI, as we're gonna explore the changes in industry that you've seen over the 40 years. I mean, there's so much to talk about here, but I want to call attention to something you said already because I heard you saying, like, yeah, revenue, yeah, profit, yeah, you got to watch your expenses. It's almost like you're driving this vehicle, and yeah, you got to pay attention to what the gauges tell you, or the vehicle is not gonna make it. But don't lose sight of what's going on outside. That's the real journey outside the windshield. Look at look at the destiny, where you've been traveling, where you've been able to go by, what you've been able to see. And I I wanted to ask you this did you ever feel like at any point that was an unintended consequence of just working really hard to serve people? Because we've kind of had that happening even for us now. I mean, if I'm being honest, we started this thing to help electricians today, and we didn't really think too much about tomorrow, right? But four years go by, and now we've got friends who are, you know, acquisitions that's a hot topic today, too. I'm sure, as you, you know, A1 and everything going on there. I can't wait to hear your take on that. But uh, there's people growing up, it's affecting their lives so brilliantly. Was that an unintended consequence for you too? Or did you always know that you're there was going to be a back-end like feeling that was just going to energize you to keep going?

SPEAKER_01 10:13

Yeah, I mean, I I wish I could say I I approached the business philosophy sort of with that end in mind, but I don't think I really did. It's it's easy to sort of look retrospectively at it and say it was deliberate, but I would just say that we always subscribe to that notion. I I I think I think when you're younger, you think that there is a pinnacle that can be achieved. And if you accept that as a premise, when you think you've reached that pinnacle, then there's really nowhere to go but down afterwards. And when I realized that this pinnacle that I thought I was chasing didn't actually exist, it became a little bit easier for me to focus on the fact that I'm should always be improving, should always be looking to elevate, always doing more. And I think that that has been something like even for us, like as an agency, when we get awards and you know, listen, we we've we've got a lot of recognition for our work over the years. And I always like say to my team, like, savor the moment, but understand what this actually means. This means that we need to do better because this can't be the top of whatever it is. Like, you know, we there was a HVAC rap contest that was in this magazine. Like we used to win all the time, like we would win all the winners, and it would be cool and all, but then I would say, Oh man, you know what? Like, we've got to do better next year. Like, how do we top this? How do we one up this? And and even when I post on Facebook sometimes, someone will say, That's the best truck that you've ever done. And they don't understand by saying that that's essentially a challenge.

SPEAKER_03 11:57

Challenge, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:58

You know, like, oh, I really appreciate you saying that, but that only means that like I have to do better now. Like they'll say, That's the best truck, that's my favorite, like whatever it is. And and it it's to me like that's the challenge. Like, now you just drew a line in the sand, and now I need to I need to exceed that.

SPEAKER_03 12:15

So 35 people in the back roll their eyes and go, oh great, here goes the standards up again.

SPEAKER_00 12:20

You know, Dan, I gotta ask, man, and I'm sure a lot of electricians out there are thinking the same thing because we're always constantly grinding to be better, but how do you keep it from burning yourself out? Like you have this standard, and you're like, I'm gonna be the best, and then someone makes that statement and you're like, Okay, I gotta be better. How do you both walk the line of perfectionism and a healthy balance to where you're not completely burned out after 30-something years? Geez, you're asking all the hard questions. Let's already man. That's the one that's top of my mind. Because I'm like, like, I gotta know what's your secret.

SPEAKER_01 12:50

I I think that you have to, in some level, always have an unhealthy obsession to the craft. And I think that you you have to always be really always thinking about, you know, and I don't know if that comes from within or or where it actually arises from, but that status quo thing is is is a trap because it really just keeps people complacent and at a certain level. And I've never really subscribed to that mindset. I've always just always thought that, again, nothing we're ever doing today should be considered to be good enough for tomorrow. But obsessing over the details, it can sometimes feel like that perfectionism and and that that becomes an obstacle in itself of moving forward and of progress. But I think those are the things that has made us really successful is, you know, when I look at a mascot, when I look at topography and I I place the letters a certain distance aside one another, that probably 99 out of 100 people would never notice those little details. But I'm surrounded by a team also that knows those details. And none of us would let that go out or consider that to be acceptable. So collectively, we all have a very high standard that we hold each other accountable for. And when we see something that is not at the level that it should be, when we see things that are not at that level, we challenge each other to make sure it can be. And that is one thing that I think our team does well on their own, but something that I'm constantly talking to them about is like, hey, look at the truck as a canvas that you've literally never seen before and pretend like you haven't done 300 before it. How would you actually approach this job? Throw out everything that you know about truck wraps or branding and tackle this from a perspective that feels completely foreign to you. So I'm always challenging them to not fall into a routine, to not go where something feels comfortable, to push outside the boundaries of where it may seem very safe as a solution and think about things from a different vantage point. And that is like top-down driven, I think, for everyone. Like just because we've been doing it a certain way, I want you to look at that and say, is that the correct way? Is that is there another way we could do this? Let's not fall into something that feels very formulaic in our approach. And again, super hard standard to do. Like, we do literally like five brands a week here, right? So there's a tremendous volume that we're doing, but I'm literally asking them on every single application, like like approach this in a different manner each time and try to see you can arrive at a different conclusion from it. It would be very easy to be very formulaic in what we do. And and I get the idea that a lot of times you look at work and you'll say that's from Kick Charge. But I like to think that people say that that they can recognize our work because it it uh lives to a certain standard. There's certain things about the way we brand companies that is very consistent across the board. But I think the matter in which we do it is where I think we have a lot of variety.

SPEAKER_03 16:06

Yeah, that's really important stuff. Dan, just before we leave the pinnacle thing, do you remember your first peak that you imagined then back when you're hand lettering still?

SPEAKER_01 16:16

I I do because it was it was it was actually pretty early in my career. It was, it was probably maybe, and you're gonna say, well, this is weird for you to say this because you were only like three or four years into it, but there was a magazine that was called Sinecraft Magazine Magazine, and it actually published up until probably three or four years ago. And I used to think that if you got in this magazine, that was one of the pinnacles of your career because the work in that magazine was such a high standard that most people could never imagine having their work featured in it. So when I worked in a sign shop, I was 17 years old. I got a job in a sign shop, and I literally would have swept the floor just to be around it. Like, I I wasn't at the level that I should have been hired, but I was like, dude, like I don't even pay me. Like, I will just sweep the floors, like, just let me be around this. And he was a master sign painter, and he taught me so much about layout and composition and legibility and topography, like all the things again, 17 years old. I'm not going to an art school, you know. I there's not a lot of information about what I'm really passionate about to get. And he said, Listen, everything that leaves this shop should be able to be featured in that magazine. And he was like, I don't care if it's a no-parking sign, like it should be at a level that we can be proud of that our name is associated with. And that always really stuck with me. I was like, wow, you know, he really was so concerned about the level in detail and quality of every single thing that was put out from that agency. And that has really stuck with me. I mean, I we truly believe that today with everything that we do. And so, believe it or not, like, you know, so I'm working full-time as a graphic designer in New York City after I graduated college. I'm I'm, you know, 22, 23 years old. And then I start this business and I start doing work at that level. And I'm just like, it's got to be this level. Like, they may only be paying me for this level, but like I need to elevate it. Like, they're gonna get so much more than what they actually paid me for because I'm trying to make a name for myself. I'm trying to put out amazing work. So I did all this amazing work, I submitted it to Sinecraft, and they actually published, they did like a three-page spread on me. And I hadn't even quit my day job yet. Like, I was literally about to quit my day job. And then I'm like, okay, I'm in the magazine now. Like, this is where I thought, this is where all my heroes were that I admired, like all these other sign artists. And I'm like, now I'm in this magazine. And then I realized, well, where do where do you go after that? What do you do after that? And then believe it or not, that actually started my relationship with that magazine. They asked me to start writing for that magazine. I published a hundred articles after I was first featured in that magazine. I got featured, I think, 11 times on the front cover of that magazine. I wrote two books initially published by that magazine. Wow. So like it opened up so many doors, but I realized again, like, you got to keep pushing. Like, that that can't be the benchmark for you. There's so much more that you could be doing and that you should be focused on doing.

SPEAKER_03 19:25

What year did you get into the magazine? Do you remember?

SPEAKER_01 19:27

It was 95.

SPEAKER_03 19:29

95.

SPEAKER_01 19:31

Yeah. Yeah, I was 25 at the time. Yeah, 25.

SPEAKER_03 19:34

One more touch on this here, Dan.

SPEAKER_01 19:37

Just oh my god.

SPEAKER_03 19:38

Another picture. This is 86. Oh, so that would have been a peak you were maybe thinking about at this time.

SPEAKER_01 19:43

Yeah. So in 86, I was 16. That's actually inside a shed in my parents' backyard.

SPEAKER_03 19:51

And for those that don't understand what hand lettering is, I mean, you weren't just cutting out vinyl and pasting it to a board here. What's going on? What is this?

SPEAKER_01 19:58

Yeah, this is all just done with a brush and a can of paint. Like, so everything had to be measured and hand-drawn, hand lettered. There, there wasn't actually right around 85, 86 is when vinyl lettering actually was introduced. Before that, everything was done by hand. So, yeah, this is me. You know, it's it's ironic because you could sort of see it, or it's maybe cropped out, but the the but the bicycle that's actually hanging behind me was in that shot. And that's a bike that I bought when I was, you know, 15 years old, and I restored it. It's a it's a really expensive Italian racing bike, and I earned it with the money I made paint painting signs. So I have that as a reminder of the the value of hard work. And it's literally like it's hanging, like there it is, it's right there, hanging in my office. Wow. Oh, there it is.

SPEAKER_00 20:47

Same bike, it's the same bike.

SPEAKER_03 20:49

Yep. Is that the bike? There's a picture. I think last time we really dove into your heart attack, guys. You can go back to uh episode looks like 298. Man, we cranked out a lot of episodes in season one. Um, but we talked in full about the heart attack and the journey, and there's this image of you riding a bike after the heart attack. Were you on that bike?

SPEAKER_01 21:08

No, it was that's a different bike, but yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:11

This one's a model now, it just sits on the wall.

SPEAKER_01 21:13

That's it just sits on the wall, yeah. I restored it about 10 years ago. And um, like I said, you know, I remember seeing it at a bike shop, passing by with my dad, and I said, Oh, dad, I really love that bike. And he's like, if you want it, you should buy it. And he never handed me things like that. It was just more like, you want to get it, you go out and you earn it. And my dad was actually an electrician as well. I don't know if I I mentioned that, but he was an electrician. He worked for the Port Authority of New York, which is a very big conglomerate. Uh, but he did do electrical work on the side. And I used to go with him on jobs, and I would be drilling holes through two by fours and running some Romex for him and stuff like that. So it was pretty cool, you know, just even seeing him have a little taste of entrepreneurial spirit. Even though he worked for a pretty big company at the at the time. So on a bus.

SPEAKER_03 22:08

I think you might have done that in the first interview too.

SPEAKER_00 22:11

Very likely. I if I am nothing but predictable, if nothing else.

SPEAKER_03 22:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:15

I just remember when he would show the breaker panels and he'd be like, Yeah, you see that thing on the on the panel? Like, if you touch that, you'll die. And I was like, all right, you know what? That I'm gonna let you handle that part of it.

SPEAKER_00 22:25

I don't want to. I remember a very similar story happening that still blows mine that's similar to that. Was I remember having an electrician come to my house when I was a kid and I'm asking him, he's like in the panel, he's like, really in it? I'm like, Aren't you worried you're gonna like get shocked? And he goes, Listen, when you know what you're doing, you can do this. He takes his whole hand and he puts it into the panel and he touches the plastic between the bustling. He's like, I know I can do this because I know what I'm doing. He's like, if I would know that you know everything about what's going on in this space, don't touch it. It was just one of those lessons that I'm like, all right, this this guy knows what he's doing. I gotta be like this.

SPEAKER_03 22:58

Yep. Dan, you must have been at the forefront of the recognition and the realization that vans don't have to be all white. When did that moment occur to you and you realize like how big branding could be for home services?

SPEAKER_01 23:15

Yeah, I would say it's probably about maybe 15 years ago, and that's kind of when raps started becoming a little bit more popular. Before then, everything was doing, you know, vinyl lettering. And even when I first started, I wasn't doing wraps, I was doing primarily vinyl lettering. And you just started realizing at that point the options and the creative options that you had when you could do a full wrap, and then you started looking at not relying on whatever color Ford or GM could paint the truck, but that you had this opportunity to do something with a relatively unlimited gamut of colors at that, at that point. I think it's weird to me that I coined the phrase white van syndrome. Like that's I see people like randomly talking about that, and like that still kind of blows my mind because that's something that that I had coined like probably five or six years ago, maybe. But I think it's it's almost more rare now to have a white van than it is to have a wrapped van. So it it is pretty interesting to see that there's so much better understanding of why the wrap is important, what it potentially can do for business when it's done correctly. That being said, even though there's less white vans probably on the road today than there used to be, there's still a you know, a prevailing amount of really poorly done raps that sadly don't live up to the opportunity that the medium actually can present. So, you know, when you look at electrician stuff, like you see a lot of just, you know, very common errors with lightning bolts and you know, that type of imagery and just not really fully grasping how branding actually works for that medium. So it's still probably better than that white van, but there's so much opportunity, I think, especially in the electrical trades, which has has not really embraced brand to the extent that other home service trades have.

SPEAKER_03 25:15

We're a little, we're a little slow.

SPEAKER_01 25:17

Yeah, yeah. Slow adopters, but catching up. Like we've done so many more electrical contractors probably over the last three or four years that understand why it's why it's really important and why it's critical. But again, like if you were electrical only and you looked at your top five competitors, probably most of them are still not well branded at this point.

SPEAKER_03 25:39

Yeah, yeah, in most cities. Well, that brings us to the ultimate question, actually. I mean, we just skirted past this. Everyone's dying to know does an electrical brand need a lightning bolt?

SPEAKER_01 25:50

No, what what well does a does an HVAC brand need sun and snowflakes? Or they seem to red and blue arrows.

SPEAKER_00 25:57

A dripping pipe for plumbers?

SPEAKER_01 26:00

I I don't even think any of our electrical brands have a lightning bolt. Maybe they do, but it's not a must-have. Like you don't really need to put an electrical bolt in there. If it says electrical, most consumers know what you do without kind of overstating the obvious. I mean, the biggest challenge with it is just how do you make it ownable? Like, so how can you lay claim to the idea of a lightning bolt in your brand when everyone else does it? And I always say to this, like, hey, listen, go on Google and type in electrical contractor logos and see what the top 50 looks like. And if yours is in there, you're doing it wrong. Like, that's just the way it is. Like, you can't own the idea of what your brand is if everyone else has the same idea. What can you do to be different? What can you do that doesn't blend in and stands out and is more disruptive? What can you do to live in someone's mind so they can recall your name later on? I think that's again where where people get that sort of notion wrong because, like, oh, they really need to understand I'm an electrician. I'm like, okay, but but they can understand you're an electrician without you resorting to something that feels very painfully generic and forgettable at the same time.

SPEAKER_03 27:14

There's a psychological factor happening here, and I'm reminded of I love this reference. Tell me if you know this one. There's a movie that Will Smith did uh with this chick, I always forget her name, Margot Robbie, and it was called Focus. Do you ever see that? They're con artists.

SPEAKER_01 27:31

I haven't seen it, but I want to check it out now.

SPEAKER_03 27:34

Okay, so I'll send you a link after this. But basically, what happens is there's a big setup, and even Marg's not in on it, but she's Will Smith's date, and they follow one of the biggest gamblers to this football game, and they're in the box with him. And he's purposely like a pool shark losing bets to this guy all night until it becomes believable enough that he's desperate to make his money back because he's he's got nothing left. He only had a mill. And so he asked the guy, he goes, I'll tell Margot a number of any player on the field. You guess a number, and if it's the same number, double or nothing, I get two mil back. And lo and behold, of course, it's a movie, but what does the guy guess? The number 55. So this has become a bit of a statement in our community. I just say 55, 55, and people know, oh, I need to get out there and get in front of people. Because what ends up happening is they reveal the secret that they exposed this guy to the number 55 by sound, by visuals. There was an accident, he got held up in traffic, there was a 55, his hotel room was 55. So they knew it was just a matter of time before he choose that, chose that number. So we just call it the 55 principle now of like you gotta be there, you gotta be in people's faces.

SPEAKER_01 28:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 28:47

So, Dan, what's your opinion on this thought of like really free will and how much people actually exercise free will when they do finally go to Google and search for their favorite home service provider to choose for their service today, and how much sort of that pre-exposure really plays into that, because that's really your market, isn't it? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:08

So I'm gonna I'm gonna date myself and and there's a song, and I think I even talk about it in my book, um, by Suicidal Tendencies, and it's called Subliminal. And there's there's a there's the chorus in the and the on in the song, and it says, They're fucking with me subliminally. And and I and I liken that song to what what branding is actually doing, right? It's controlling perception and to the best that you can. Of course, after the customer experiences your service, they will shape that perception based on what actually happened. But prior to that, what is your marketing and your branding actually communicating to them so that they believe something that they would get if they actually hired you? So, in addition to controlling the thoughts that we we hope they have about your business, controlling the narrative, it's also how do you live in their minds for recall later on? So that's why when you think about branding and you have a brand that feels very similar, common, unforgettable, I'm not able to rent space in that consumer's mind. Or the only way I can rent space is if I keep hammering them with tons of advertising, which just means you're spending more money. What if I could make it so three impressions or four impressions left an impression in their mind versus 20? How much less would you need to spend on marketing if you had a more remarkable brand? So the idea of subliminal and perception goes along with what I talk about in the book, which is the consumer psychology behind branding. It's it's affecting what someone believes the experience would be prior to them getting that experience. So before she calls the CSR, before she hits the website, before the tech arrives at your home, what does she truly believe she's about to receive from your particular company? Is it honest? Is it trustworthy? Am I going to be okay with who I'm letting in my home? Do I think their pricing will be fair? Like all those things are driven by what she perceives the brand to be communicating, right? So all we're trying to do with branding is hopefully play a role in that perception, right? So if she sees the truck and oh yeah, they look honest, they look trustworthy, they look like they'll be in business next year if something goes wrong, right? But if I show up in a white van and a magnetic sign on the back of it, well, I I wonder why they have a magnetic sign. Like, are they really in business? Are they really gonna be around next year? And they want to change out my whole panel. Well, that's like a pretty big investment. Like, what if something goes wrong? Can I trust them to honor their warranty? Like, these are all things that they're thinking about. And you have to understand, too, that consumers approach every relationship with a contractor with a very healthy dose of skepticism and bias. They're afraid of who's coming. They've seen the the shows on TV where they expose the contractor for fraud, or they just needed a capacitor, and yet they're being told they need an entire new system, or they've seen some of that crap, right? And so they're already worried about who's coming to their home. So, what can we be doing with the messages that we're putting out ahead of any interaction with her to make her feel confident in who's coming to her home? And then to go along with that, when she does get an estimate, maybe she gets three estimates, and maybe we're the highest. What have we done in all the messaging, all the marketing channels, in the sales presentation to make them feel like there's an actual reason to pay a premium for our service, right? And if you can't answer those questions, well, then she's just gonna probably go with maybe the cheaper guy because we haven't we haven't identified to her why there's a reason to pay a premium for our particular services. And that's what branding really should be doing. And that's why a lot of guys struggle with that because they don't have a brand that communicates that premium experience and they haven't shown with the branding that there's a reason to pay a premium. So when guys are trying to raise average tickets and they're thinking about their close rates or thinking about their booking rates, all those KPIs that matter so much, and they run into walls as they try to increase that average ticket. Have you given them any reason at all to believe that there's a reason to pay a premium for your service? You know, we we have companies that don't change much operationally, but now they show up in a well-branded van, the website matches, the uniforms matches, you know, all the brochures look dialed in and they're getting the higher numbers because the consumer believes there's a reason why that they should actually pay a premium. You know, I always say, like, we work with a lot of amazing companies that do well operationally, like the techs are amazing, the sales team is amazing, the CSRs are great, but they just don't look like any of those things. They don't look like a great company. Like, imagine that you could actually marry up the reality of what you provided with a brand that actually communicated that at the same time, right? And I always say that that's the question that owners should be asking themselves every day is does the brand that I have today actually represent what we provide on a daily basis to our customers? Like if I knew nothing else about your company, but I hit your website and I saw a truck, what do I think I'm gonna get? Now your your your tech may go in there and freaking kill it. And afterwards that homeowner believes everything that you're saying about the the service and everything. But what if we never get the opportunity because they don't believe that there's a reason why, right? So those are all the things that we try to ask owners is you know, is it representative of what you do today, or does it actually represent, you know, what you started with? Like, and there's nothing wrong with that. Like you you started, you bootstrapped it, you did the best you could, and then it's then you got three vans, then you got five vans, then you got ten vans, and you're like suddenly along the way, this clip art logo that we started with is not actually representing what we provide today. Imagine if it did, though. Like, what would what would change for the business? What would it do for morale for the for the for the employees? What would it do for recruitment? How much would it lower my marketing spend? Like, those are all the questions that really you should be asking.

SPEAKER_00 35:31

Something you're saying just sounds so cool because I can see a parallel with everything that's being done. It's just almost like one of the reasons why you'd run a sales process because you know I've gotten them to get the door, but how can I make sure that each tech is delivering a consistent experience? That way the homeowner can say, I worked with Joe once, and the second tech comes and he's acting less just like Joe, I know it's gonna be a good experience.

SPEAKER_01 35:52

Yeah. And I think from your perspective too, like you guys know when you're working with a company that has a well brand has a great brand, how much easier the sales process is. It really is. Like the customer is almost already sold before the tech gets there. And you know, when we look at those KPIs, like like booking rates, close rates, even conversion rates on the website, how brand dramatically affects those outcomes because it's doing so much of the heavy lifting. Now, now you can have a great salesperson that potentially could overcome some of those obstacles. But when you arm them with the best tools possible, when you have that homeowner already have a preconceived notion of the experience that they might get before they chose you, everything is going to improve with that, right? So it's definitely one of those things where I think so many people get caught up in the numbers and they're so, they're so concerned with those KPIs and they look for other ways in which those KPIs can be improved. Like every owner should be doing. Like, well, the CSRs aren't booking the call. So, like, what can we do to help with that and help with training with that? Or maybe the the guy's not closing when he's presenting options, like all those things, definitely things to be focused on. But sometimes the underlying undercurrent of the business is that it's not a company that looks like they have their shit together. So you're working to overcome that bias literally when the call comes in. And now you're really working harder to sell yourself to someone. Like, wouldn't it be better if they already thought the experience was going to be amazing? You know? Like it sounds painfully obvious, right?

SPEAKER_03 37:27

But like I think what's what's also the problem here, though, is there's a fallacy in the psychology of business providers. You've already got 12 too many hats on, you're overwhelmed by the thought of this. And we seem to have a preconceived notion that we go from zero to five stars, and that's the journey. And it really isn't. It's people perceive us from what you're saying. They have they set an expectation based on what they perceive, and then they either invite you or not based on what the level of service they're looking for. So it sounds like what you're saying then is it's important to set up that preconceived notion ahead of time.

SPEAKER_04 38:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 38:05

So the expectation's high and the service is high, right? Without the expectation being set, if you're a blank slate, then you're just not going to get the option to work with people as often. You're not going to set that expectation early.

SPEAKER_01 38:19

A thousand percent. And you could talk to any contractor and they're going to say that their biggest challenge related to marketing is how much it costs to acquire a new customer and all the fees it costs for digital marketing. I mean, we we manage the digital campaigns for, I think at this point, over 70 home service contractors. And that's the number one complaint that everyone has is you know, our um acquisition costs are so high and the cost per lead is so high. And everything that the brand, again, should be doing is looking at ways in which we can be the one that people think about when they need service. So every impression is so important. And then even doing the things that don't seem very sexy, like going to a home show, like going to the Fourth of July parade, going to the Halloween trunk and treat, and having your vans there and giving out candy and being visible in the community, like doing all those little things. And you think about how much it costs to go to a home show, like what is it, like 500 bucks, if that, you know, or how much it costs to participate in the trunk or treat. What is it, like 200 bucks? And yet we're okay paying $500 for the lead on Google because no one knows we exist, right? So just looking at being organic and becoming five mile famous is another big part of it, right? So doing the work it takes to become visible in the community, sponsored a little little league. Like I literally have a carpet cleaning company that's sponsored, he spent $30,000 and sponsored every single little league, softball, basketball team, soccer team in the community. And now every one of those parents sees his brand on the back of this kid's t-shirts, and it's been amazing for him. Like all these people now are his super fans because they're like, oh, you sponsored our team. We want to support you. Like, and it's just like, man, like you could spend 30 grand in a month on Google and not have the same kind of impact or results. And I think also as people think about like going into other markets where they're like, I need to expand, I need to, I need to go further out from our home base. It's just like the notion of five mile famous is like, well, what if everyone within five miles of your office knew that you existed and thought of you first when you needed service? So hyper focus on local and become that brand that everybody knows in your community. And you won't need to go 10 miles, 20 miles, 30 miles out because there's so much work to be had right in your own community. But the problem is, is half the people in your community, most of them don't even know you exist.

SPEAKER_03 40:48

Out of straight out of mind.

SPEAKER_01 40:49

You know, so again, like digital 100% going to make up most of the marketing expenses, right? I get it. But just don't be so dependent on that medium that you forget the effect of grassroots. I feel like it's fell out of favor over the last several years, and everything is, you know, centered around conversations around AI and things like that. And listen, there's a lot of great things that AI can be doing, but AI can't own your brand. You know, that's the one thing that you can actually control is your own brand in your community. And no amount of Google or AI or anything can really change that or take that away from you. So I like to say sometimes people build their their companies on sort of this, you know, shifting foundation that could literally change at a moment's notice. Imagine if you're so dependent on Google, but then Google decides to change the algorithm and now your main lead source just disappears overnight. Well, what are we gonna do? Again, if you haven't been building a brand that you actually control the outcome from, that's gonna be a really hard thing to experience later on. It's it's the same stuff you see with people just putting all their eggs into AI-built websites and AI content, and let me just build 500 pages on my website. You know, the the latest information, like Google just had a summit for home service contractors, and it was like, we're gonna know when you do that, and it's not gonna be good for you, you know, and so many people are jumping on that bandwagon too. And I'm just like, again, come back to the things that you can control. Brand is one of the things you can control that will not or cannot be impacted by some of those other external things.

SPEAKER_03 42:29

Thousand percent. I I've recently been speaking about uh Benny the Jet, his name is uh American kickboxer with like a 200-0 record. Like he's very known in that community. And I was watching some YouTube videos of him, and he talks about and he's sparring with this other karate guy, black belt, and they're kind of having fun, and he's teaching him stuff, and he's like, See, I throw a jab not because I want to hit you, because I want to know the distance and get you to move. Right. Then I come across with a hook, not because I want to hit you, because I want you to sway right. And then I come with three, four, five, six, and I knock you out because it's the sixth hit, it's the fifth, it's it's those connections, and it's that depth of the combination that actually converts this to a knockout. And so we started talking about that in marketing too. It's not that you expect your yard sign to make a sale zero to one. That's not the way the world works anymore. People don't just buy at a moment's notice because your van looks great, or because the yard sign was out, or because you left a door hanger at the neighbors, or because any of those things. But what we see is first touch, last touch attribution later on when they do convert. And if you ask the right questions or have the right tracking in place, you'll see that oh, we did see the van a bunch of times in our neighborhood already. The yard sign was there. We did receive the thing that we threw into the recycling on our doorstep. All of this actually adds up to that preconceived notion, this combo. So I love bringing uh Benny the Jet into that. The other piece I wanted to uh bring into what you're saying is Ormozy said this really well. He's like, we have to understand that everyone at this point is armed with objections. And the proof is simple. Go on Facebook and scroll and tell me how many ads you see in one full scroll. All of them are pretty good. Because there's trackers listening to us, they're following your every move, they know what to sell you. So how are you not buying? Well, it's because you have objections armed at all times. Uh not right now, that's too much. This is probably gonna cost me a bunch. And homeowners are just the same. So instead of just saying, How can we beat the tire kickers? How can we just get the good leads? How can we beat the the guys that are racing to the bottom, tank top terry, chuck in a truck, all these guys.

SPEAKER_00 44:46

Stand in a van.

SPEAKER_03 44:47

We don't compete in that way. You you do combos, you show up for people, and you affect your preconceived notion that they have, that perspective that they have of your brand. Sounds like that's exactly what you're saying too, Dan.

SPEAKER_01 45:00

Yeah, 100%. And you you just said something too that that makes a lot of sense in the sense that the brand attracts the type of people that it speaks to. So if you have the white truck with the magnetic sign, you're going to attract a very specific type of client. One that is not accustomed to spending money on anything, that wants the cheapest option, that is not willing to pay a premium. So again, like that perception gap is sometimes where the contractors have the biggest struggle because they're like, well, I don't understand why I can't charge what these guys are charging. I'm like, well, you haven't given the homeowner a reason why they think that they should. Um, so that weak brand will attract customers that are looking for the lowest cost option. If that's not where you want to live, then you need to address what you're actually speaking to them with. You're speaking to them with the notion that they expect you to already be cheap. And then when you come in with a higher estimate, they're like, this doesn't make any sense. Like you don't look like someone that I would expect to pay more for. You look like someone I would expect to pay less for, right? So, so that that gap is where a lot of contractors struggle with because um they're putting out signals without realizing they're putting out signals. And when you see the people that complain or that they're online and they're talking about how much it should cause for a change out or how much it charged for installing a ceiling fan or whatever it is, and you're like, oh, I can't get that. There's no way I could charge that. And then you you look at their branding, you look at the messaging that they're putting out, and I'm like, yeah, I know why you can't get it, because you don't look like you deserve to be paid it. Like it's not rocket science, but the message that you put out is telling them that you should be cheap. Like it just uh, you know, it's just very simple. It's not it's not complicated.

SPEAKER_03 46:46

And that incongruence could even be imagined by the guys clicking on this video on YouTube or on the podcast right now. Imagine we had a picture of Dan and it said, uh, Dan teaches you how to make $500 million this year. And that's not what the podcast is about at all. It's so much deeper and richer than that. But that same misrepresentation, that incongruence is why people drop off or don't call in the first place. Yeah, a thousand percent. You mentioned AI. We coined a little expression in-house. Curious what your thoughts are on this. In a time where everything is moving so fast, I had to come up with something because we constantly hear people like, oh, I should should I do an AI CSR? Should I have AI take over my marketing? Should I have AI build my websites entirely? Should I have AI freaking everything? Create my presentations, my options, all of it, right? So here's what I've just said to answer that. Use AI as much as humanly possible. Yeah, take full advantage, but don't lose the human. The human to human is the service. What are your thoughts on that, Dan? And how are you guys using AI and trying to kind of trim back, or or if you are, to make sure that you don't lose the human touch?

SPEAKER_01 47:58

Yeah, I mean, our philosophy here is human first and human last. AI assist in the middle, but we don't have things running on autopilot. We don't have things running unmonitored. As it relates to branding, I have nine of the most gifted, talented illustrators on staff who still hand sketch their ideas. Um, when those ideas are fleshed out and very well defined and formulated, we may use AI to simulate what that brand might look like on the side of a building or on a uniform or things like that. So we can use it to ideate real examples of creative that we've built from scratch. Um, so we use it as a tool for some of that. Um, we certainly can use it on some of the more repetitive tasks as it relates to building websites and things like that. But I think you're seeing, especially like on the contractor side, when it's being used for you know, ads and flyers and things like that, and and they are all kind of looking the same at this point, and you immediately identify that that ad was generated by chat or something like that. And to me, the the and of course it's you know, and I and I will say this because every everyone's gonna say, well, of course he's gonna say that because you know he runs a branding and you know design agency. Um so I will I will put that disclaimer out, and I understand that that potential criticism. But what I would say is if you're looking at the consumer studies and the feedback from consumers about very obviously generated AI marketing, you're seeing a lot of very, very negative backlash about it. So what it's telling the consumer is is maybe, well, if this is the amount of effort they're putting into their marketing, then their product or their restaurant or whatever made must not be very good. Right. So like there's also just a lot of people, especially consumers that are just anti-AI for almost anything. Like they're just so against the idea of AI. So now you're putting out advertising that is very much obvious to them that it was done with AI. And now they're just saying, I'm not gonna use you. Right. So just imagine putting out marketing that's alienating a percentage of the population that you're trying to attract simply because it was done with AI.

SPEAKER_04 50:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:27

Right. So I think there's some real concerns with that. Like I posted on my Facebook a link to an article that was published a couple months ago where it interviewed consumers and got that. It was like 64% of the people have a negative opinion of a company that uses AI for marketing. And I'm like, holy shit. Like, that's not just the marketing guy that that has designers on staff saying that. That's the consumers actually saying that. Um, and so I think there's a real challenge. I think it has its place. I think there's a little bit of AI fatigue for many home service owners as far as well, which tool do I need? And should I have AI answering the phone? And uh, there's so many different companies now who offering these types of services. Um, what I would say is like, listen, just never forget the fundamentals, never forget the basics, never forget like a human booking the call is still really, really important for us. Um, you know, listen, maybe, maybe it has its place off hours and maybe you could do a decent job there. But I still don't think I've seen evidence right now on a larger scale that supports the notion that it's doing a better job booking calls than than humans, right? So I think I I just always say, like, just don't forget the fundamentals and it's just easy to be caught up in the latest tool that is supposedly going to make your life easier. But what what what problem are you hoping AI will solve for your business? And and then look at it from that perspective.

SPEAKER_00 51:57

You know, something that comes to mind is almost like self-checkout or pressing one to go to which department prior to AI. Just because someone cooperates with it doesn't mean they actually approve of it.

SPEAKER_04 52:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:09

And I feel like that's really accurate with AI because, like, just the other day I had to make a call and I went through an AI prompt and I'm like, I know what I'm dealing with. I don't want to press zero and eventually reach a human at this point. I'll just do it, but I'm not gonna be happy about it. And how many people are calling their providers and thinking the exact same thing? Well, I'm not gonna be able to talk to this person anymore, but at least I'll just go to the prompts and hopefully someone gives me a call back.

SPEAKER_01 52:30

Yeah. And and so again, now that experience with whomever you were calling is immediately put into a very different sphere. It's immediately on a negative sphere. And now maybe they can overcome that, maybe, but you're starting from a negative already. You know, like I said, there's some great tools, there's some great things. I I think some of the more fundamental things that can be assisted with AI, when I look at rehash as being a great tool, when I look at constantly making sure we're communicating to existing customers through texting, through email, like some of those automations I think are super helpful and really, really important. Um, but I think the idea that some of those things you're gonna set on autopilot and not actively monitor is really um scary.

SPEAKER_03 53:22

Yeah. Yeah, you cannot not communicate. So, like a gap in communication to your customers is communicating something, but you don't care. You're better off to have an automated message there, like CRMs have had for a long time, to at least say I've put intention into messaging you in this space, even if they recognize that it's a templated message. That's better than not. We've seen that proven. So fully agree with you. Yeah, scary time, man. Scary. A lot of people just putting their whole business on autopilot, it seems.

SPEAKER_01 53:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 53:52

I wanted to take a quick moment to do uh win of the week, as it's something we love to do here. And this one's actually a brand that you did years ago. Uh we first interviewed you. Episode 298 was around June 29th, 2023. And I think it was that same year that you branded Watts Wright Electric with Alan Black in Tulsa, Oklahoma. Uh uh, and we're fortunate enough to work with uh Alan in some regards, even still today. And we just recently launched a little bit of a program with him, and he's got a big win uh from this. And we actually told you guys about this in our last live we did on YouTube. So if you look at the podcast feed, you can get this strategy. Uh, but basically what they've done is embrace the fact that if you help someone in a heavy in a neighborhood, excuse me, like Dan said, Five mile famous, well, the homes around it were built around the same time. And so they've started canvassing the neighborhoods a lot better, not just the door next door and across the street, but actually canvassing with a yellow alert program, as we call it, and just letting homeowners know what was found in their area. And if they wanted an inspection, hey, we're in the area, we can waive the usual inspection fee and come and help you. Well, that led to a 12k sale and now a 24k sale this week. We just saw that one in the chat the other day. So just a beast of a week for having a nice young lady go around and say good things and help the community. So fantastic job on that one. And Dan, great job on that brand. Thought that was fitting for this episode. One more plug. This one's for you, Dan. I have been in love with your YouTube channel since 2023. There's one particular video I absolutely uh adore, and I send people to it all the time. And it's that I think it was a branded, not blanded video where you do before and after, since you pull it up on the screen and rate it and show it where it's what is, and then the the new way. Do you still do those now?

SPEAKER_01 55:46

We we haven't been doing them as much. We started something new where we've had people just submit their vans, and then we have an illustrator and one of the account team review it and talk about things that could be improved and things that could be done differently. Um, but yeah, we got a lot of great feedback on that. I should probably revisit it and do more of them because people really enjoy seeing the before and after. I think there's a lot of power in seeing something that, you know, maybe you would say, oh, that that looks okay, but then seeing the after, you're like, oh my God, it's like so much better. Um, and educating people on on what made it better, I think is part of that process as well.

SPEAKER_03 56:24

Not everyone's good at the authority piece. For whatever reason, the way you guys produce that, I found it very easy to just listen and believe, like, got Dan knows his shit. This is it. That authority comes across really well in those. So that's a recommendation for me. If you guys haven't seen these, you can check out the YouTube channel. I think it's at Kick Charge Creative. Yes, it is. Yeah, go check it out. Uh, your book, Branded Not Blanded.

SPEAKER_01 56:48

Yeah. I did a second edition of the book that was published about eight months ago. Nice. Congratulations. And the difference between the first edition and the second edition was the second edition, I focused much more on data. I collected a lot of case studies and a lot of data looking at those KPIs we mentioned earlier. So looking at post rebrand and the KPIs like booking rates, close rates, average tickets, conversion rates on websites, like just really diving deep into that. Because I was like, well, it's super cool to have a suit, you know, a nice wrap and everything like that. But what's the data behind the results? And what is that actually demonstrating and telling us about why this is important? So spent a lot more time on that in the book. And then there's a new chapter that we added that really goes deeper onto brand story and storytelling um with the branding. So um, yeah, so this I'll I'll I have it here, but this is the one that this is the second edition. So it has the black cover. Um, and you know, really great feedback on that. I I always say that if you're starting or thinking of starting a business, that if you read this book first, it'll help avoid so many very common errors that people literally make on day one, especially as it relates to naming, which is probably the biggest uh challenge that contractors have is they name their business wrong on day one.

SPEAKER_00 58:11

Can you just slap your last name on a van and say it's good?

SPEAKER_01 58:13

Or or your initials, you know, JL Electrical. Like it's a little bit of that.

SPEAKER_03 58:19

Hey Dan, where where do we get that book?

SPEAKER_01 58:22

Um, you could grab it on Amazon or you could get it on Kick Kick Charge website, kickcharge.com.

SPEAKER_03 58:27

Tell you what, uh, what's the price of the book?

SPEAKER_01 58:29

I think the hardcover is 39, and I think the soft cover is like low 30s or something, and the audible is five bucks and the Kindle is nine bucks or something like that.

SPEAKER_03 58:40

Amazing value, incredible value. Tell you what, this is impromptu. But if you guys listen to this and you got great value from this episode, uh, we're gonna send out 10 books. So all you got to do is give us some feedback, whether you're on YouTube, whether you're on the podcast, Apple, Spotify, wherever you're listening, uh, leave us a review there. And Tony, we've got a little form that we've filled out where we've done competitions before. If you fill that out, a submission goes in the inbox. We'll do a draw for the top 10 that uh that do that, and we'll send you a free book. And thanks so much, Dan. Is there anything else that you wanted to get across in the messaging today that we didn't cover?

SPEAKER_01 59:14

No, I mean, I listen, we hit on a lot of different different topics. I would just say if you're struggling with your marketing, if you're struggling with competing with some of the bigger companies that maybe have come into your space, um, just don't underestimate the power of grassroots. Um, really put some effort into that. I know it can be hard because maybe you go to an event and maybe you don't get leads that day or you don't get appointments booked or something like that. It's long game, but those investments that you make within the community do pay dividends um long term. And um just don't think that just Google is the only way for you to generate leads. Just, you know, grassroots still has its place and should have a place in your marketing mix.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:00

Absolutely. Great message. Joe, anything else from you, brother?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:03

Honestly, I'm just still in awe of you, Dan. Like you're an amazing human being. And the fact that you care so deeply about your craft from one perfectionist to another, like, honestly, you're the man. You're you're an absolute role model. So thank you for being who you are, and thank you really for joining us today. It's a real honor, and I think you're gonna help a lot of people. Thanks, man.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:21

I mean, that means a lot, and um, I'm I'm grateful, you know. Like, you know, we we talked probably on the other one about just me still being here today um and what that means to me, and if I can affect positive change because I've been given that blessing of another day on this earth, like I can't ask for anything more than that. So, you know, spending time with guys like you and being able to talk about this and you know, maybe it impacts someone, maybe it helps change their trajectory. And, you know, that's that's what it's all about. So super grateful for you guys too. You guys keep crushing it, man. I mean, everything that you guys are building is amazing, and the amount of lives that you guys are helping to change with what you're talking about and just giving away freely to other people is is just incredible to witness. So uh appreciate you guys as well.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:08

Yeah, I appreciate that. We actually, funny story, I'll just say before we go, is uh I saw Brian Burton waste no day. You've been on there, yeah. Yep. He posted the other day on Facebook and he's like, Oh, we're number two behind Tommy, of course. And so I'm like, hey, congrats. Uh what's the secret besides being a couple of service studs, right? And he goes, Um, well, six years for one. That's a good answer. But then he goes, but you're in the top 10 too. You guys are number nine. Like, what? How are we in the home service list? All we do is help electricians. It's kind of been the bit of that journey, man, but uh super blessed as well. Just so fortunate to have the impact. So, yeah, if you guys got value from this, then you know, let us know how else we can serve you. Looking forward to see you guys next week. Thanks, Dan. We're gonna have you on. Uh, not waiting till uh 2029, but maybe in the next year or do it again. Hey, all right, let's do it. Talk to you. Take care, guys.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:01

Thank you, guys. Be blessed.